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Episode 165: A STORM OF SWORDS, SANSA II: "Say Yes to the Dress" ft. Sarah Skilton Show Notes!

Added 2021-11-29 14:01:02 +0000 UTC

Hello and welcome to the Not A Cast … podcast: the one true chapter-by-chapter podcast going through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter a week. I’m one of your hosts Jeff better known as BryndenBFish.

And I’m your other host Emmett, better known as PoorQuentyn.

Welcome to the one hundred and sixty-fifth episode of the Not A Cast, titled: “Say Yes to the Dress: An Analysis of ASOS, Sansa II” in which good guy Cersei decides to give Sansa a beautiful dress for no reason at all. Simple generosity. You love to see it.

Introduce Sarah

[ I first learned about ASOIAF from a New Yorker article that focused on the fans’ frustrations with having to wait for Dance, and I thought, “Those poor suckers, remind me to never read this series, haha” cut to ten years later: DAMMIT!]

This episode is brought to you by our NotASmallCouncil:

Spoiler warning: All published books, 5 novels, 3 Dunk and Egg novellas, histories, interviews, TWOW sample chapters, as well as Game of Thrones the TV show. Anything and everything!

Question

Guilty Undertaker, a Sworn Sword patron, asks:

How deep do you think Sybell Spicer's involvement in planning the Red Wedding was? We know that she took steps to prevent Jeyne from getting pregnant, however, I'm skeptical of the idea that the whole marriage between Jeyne and Robb was plotted in advance. To do this, Sybell would have needed to know that Robb would attack the Crag; that he would be wounded; that Jeyne would be able to seduce him; and, most crucially, that Robb would not do what many would do in his position: refuse to marry Jeyne even after bedding her. It seems far more likely to me that Robb and Jeyne's marriage came as as much of a shock to Sybell as it did to Cat. She realized that Robb was likely to lose his war and that it would go very badly for House Westerling if he did, which prompted her to reaffirm her house's allegiance to the Lannisters (perhaps embellishing the facts of what happened to do so). If Sybell is to be the POV of the TWoW prologue, as some have suggested, we may get more insight into the exact circumstances of her deal with Tywin. She may also get her own Red Wedding. It would be very like George to make us hate a character, and then have them killed in a horrifying fashion.

So, thank you Guilty Undertaker for the question. If you’d like to ask us questions here on the NotACast pod-cast, you are welcome to become a Sworn Sword of higher-level patron over patreon.com/NotACastASOIAF where you can also get show notes, bonus episodes, merch, access to the NotASlack, weekly minisodes and shout-outs at the start and end of every episode!

Yes indeed. Check us out at patreon.com/NotACastASOIAF.

But enough about patreon. When we last checked in with Sansa, she had seen the Tyrells enter King’s Landing, attended an innocent dinner with Olenna and Margaery Tyrell and heard wonderful news: she was going to get out of King’s Landing and marry Willas Tyrell. Let’s continue the good times in this synopsis of ASOS, Sansa II!

Synopsis

“A new gown?" she said, as wary as she was astonished.
"More lovely than any you have worn, my lady," the old woman promised. She measured Sansa's hips with a length of knotted string. "All silk and Myrish lace, with satin linings. You will be very beautiful. The queen herself has commanded it."

2015 version of me is shrieking in horror at the start of this chapter. 2021 version of me is saying, “Hm, how interesting.” It’s a Sansa chapter, and we will have fun with this.

Sansa asks which queen commanded her to wear this dress, and Sansa is told that it’s Cersei. Wait. Cersei said that? Oh yeah, the old woman says. Sansa needs to dress like a real woman now. Sansa gets her arms measured, thinking that she did need a new dress given how much she’d grown and how she’d burned most of her wardrobe when she burned her bed when she had her first period.

"Your bosom will be as lovely as the queen's," the old woman said as she looped her string around Sansa's chest. "You should not hide it so."
The comment made her blush. Yet the last time she'd gone riding, she could not lace her jerkin all the way to the top, and the stableboy gaped at her as he helped her mount. Sometimes she caught grown men looking at her chest as well, and some of her tunics were so tight she could scarce breathe in them.

Sansa asks the color of the dress, and the old woman says, um, uh, it’ll be awesome. Yeah. The color will be awesome. She’ll take care of the colors. No need for further questions. And when will Sansa wear this dress? Way, way before Joffrey’s wedding to Margaery for, um, reasons.

Sansa thanks the woman and Cersei for the dress, and the old woman leaves. Sansa is suspicious of this. She thinks maybe this is Margaery’s or Olenna’s work. Margaery had been nice to her since that dinner, bringing Sansa into the fold of ladies in the Tyrell court. Lady Leonette gave Sansa harp lessons. Lady Janna was a gossip. Merry Crane was a good storyteller, and Lady Bulwer reminded Sansa of Arya. And then there were the Tyrell cousins:

Closest to Sansa's own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. "Roses from lower on the bush," quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls.
The cousins took Sansa into their company as if they had known her all their lives. They spent long afternoons doing needlework and talking over lemon cakes and honeyed wine, played at tiles of an evening, sang together in the castle sept . . . and often one or two of them would be chosen to share Margaery's bed, where they would whisper half the night away. Alla had a lovely voice, and when coaxed would play the woodharp and sing songs of chivalry and lost loves. Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

Megga tells Sansa that Joffrey has beautiful lips and how Sansa must have been so heartbroken when Joffrey broke up with her.

Joffrey made me weep more often than you know, she wanted to say, but Butterbumps was not on hand to drown out her voice, so she pressed her lips together and held her tongue.

Elinor was betrothed to Alyn, a squire of Lord Ambrose, and she gushes that her favor made Alyn brave in battle.

"He says he shouted her name for his battle cry, isn't that ever so gallant? Someday I want some champion to wear my favor, and kill a hundred men." Elinor told her to hush, but looked pleased all the same.
They are children, Sansa thought. They are silly little girls, even Elinor. They've never seen a battle, they've never seen a man die, they know nothing. Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her father's head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.

Gotta admit: those are great lines.

The thing that keeps Sansa going is Margaery who takes her out to the city ramparts to see the remnants of the battle and also to go hawking. Margaery tells Sansa that Willas is a great birdsmith … is that a word? He uses eagles. Margaery then calls Sansa sister, and Sansa’s all like, I would love a sister like Margaery. She had Arya, and Arya sucked as a sister. But how could she let Margaery, her sister, marry Joffrey.

"Margaery, please," she said, "you mustn't." It was hard to get the words out. "You mustn't marry him. He's not like he seems, he's not. He'll hurt you."
"I shouldn't think so." Margaery smiled confidently . "It's brave of you to warn me, but you need not fear. Joff's spoiled and vain and I don't doubt that he's as cruel as you say, but Father forced him to name Loras to his Kingsguard before he would agree to the match. I shall have the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms protecting me night and day, as Prince Aemon protected Naerys. So our little lion had best behave, hadn't he?" She laughed, and said, "Come, sweet sister, let's race back to the river. It will drive our guards quite mad." And without waiting for an answer, she put her heels into her horse and flew.

Sansa thinks that Margaery is brave, but she has doubts that all would be well. She remembers the stories of how Aegon IV didn’t hurt Queen Naerys because of Aemon the Dragonknight. Then again, Aegon Iv murdered another kingsguard for sleeping with one his mistresses. Also killed the mistress.

Still, Sansa wonders about how Loras Tyrell will conduct himself. Sure, Joffrey might not be a total shit for a little while, but he would return to his old ways. And when he did, Sansa thinks there’ll be a new kingslayer, and the gutters will run red with Tyrell and Lannister blood. How is that Maegaery and Mace didn’t see this? Maybe Sansa was being silly? Nope. You’re being smart, Sansa.

When she told Ser Dontos that she was going to Highgarden to marry Willas Tyrell, she thought he would be relieved and pleased for her. Instead he had grabbed her arm and said, "You cannot!" in a voice as thick with horror as with wine. "I tell you, these Tyrells are only Lannisters with flowers. I beg of you, forget this folly, give your Florian a kiss, and promise you'll go ahead as we have planned. The night of Joffrey's wedding, that's not so long, wear the silver hair net and do as I told you, and afterward we make our escape." He tried to plant a kiss on her cheek.

Sansa tried to slip away from him as Dontos told her that the arrangements for her safety were all made. Sansa doesn’t need arrangements. She’s going with the Tyrells. They’ll keep her safe.

"But he does not know you," Dontos insisted, "and he will not love you. Jonquil, Jonquil, open your sweet eyes, these Tyrells care nothing for you. It's your claim they mean to wed."
"My claim?" She was lost for a moment.
"Sweetling," he told her, "you are heir to Winterfell." He grabbed her again, pleading that she must not do this thing, and Sansa wrenched free and left him swaying beneath the heart tree. She had not visited the godswood since.

Though Sansa hadn’t gone back to the godswood, she kept thinking about Dontos’ words about her claim. It didn’t make sense. Robb was still alive, and he would be married and have children. Anyways, what would Willas or the Tyrells want with Winterfell. They had Highgarden. Sansa had been doing a lot of thinking about Willas these days, whispering his name, thinking she shouldn’t care about his lame leg. She fantasizes about sitting together with puppies, listening to music and floating down barges.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

But Sansa keeps thinking about Loras instead of Willas, telling herself it wasn’t right. She could not be seen to be disappointed when she met Willas. And Willas may not be all that good-looking. He could look like Mace! But that didn’t matter. She had to be good to him.

Unfortunately for Sansa, she still had dreams, or rather: nightmares, of marrying Joffrey who turned into Ilyn Payne. Sansa thinks that she didn’t want Margaery to suffer, but she had warned her, and Margaery was keeping on keeping on about the whole thing. Sansa figures that Margaery will learn Joffrey’s true nature soon, and she decides to light a candle to the Mother to protect Margaery and a candle to the Warrior to aid Loras too if it came to that.

She would wear her new gown for the ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor, she decided as the seamstress took her last measurement. That must be why Cersei is having it made for me, so I will not look shabby at the wedding. She really ought to have a different gown for the feast afterward but she supposed one of her old ones would do. She did not want to risk getting food or wine on the new one. I must take it with me to Highgarden. She wanted to look beautiful for Willas Tyrell. Even if Dontos was right, and it is Winterfell he wants and not me, he still may come to love me for myself. Sansa hugged herself tightly, wondering how long it would be before the gown was ready. She could scarcely wait to wear it.

And that is the synopsis of ASOS, Sansa II. Now, you might be wondering if I’ve changed my mind about this being the worst chapter in all of ASOIAF, and for that … well, you’ll have to wait, because both Emmett and Sarah deserve the space to speak first. So, what did you both think?

Depth

So we’re back with my favorite character arc in ASOIAF: Jeff’s arc, in which he learns to love Sansa Stark. What a long, strange trip it’s been! Seriously though, I get why this chapter throws some people off; on first read, it seems like nothing much happens. Sansa II could’ve been designed for a reread podcast, because it only fully takes shape once you come back to it. Knowing that Sansa gets married off to Tyrion against her will instead of Willas Tyrell lends a powerful dramatic irony to this chapter. On the surface, this may well be the happiest chapter in ASOIAF, but a current of doom runs underneath, a sense of inevitability that George expresses through an innovative structure that jumps around in time. Sansa is still trapped; she just doesn’t know it yet.

Sarah’s opening statement

You’re so right that it’s ideal as a re-read, because I honestly thought the Tyrells were going to save Sansa the first time around. I was a show-watcher first, and the scene from Sansa’s last chapter that also played out similarly in the show, in which Olenna and Margaery (and Butterbumps…) ask her for the truth about Joffrey, I was holding my breath and so full of hope that they’d whisk her away. It was a huge relief to see her being honest for the first time about what she’s endured! Of course it doesn’t go that way, her ordeals are just getting started really.

The irony is that in a sick way, both Sansa and Arya got what they wanted, but in the most horrible incarnation possible. Sansa is getting a wedding in King’s Landing in front of the high lords and ladies, a beautiful dress… And Arya got her own sword and lessons in how to wield it, and if you follow that wish to its worst conclusion, it’s turned sour. Sandor tells Sansa point blank that “Knights are for killing.” Arya learns that from experience. Instead of the excitement of learning in the company of safe and trusted adults, she’s thrust into the world alone, no family, no pack, and forced to put her lessons to use. She wanted to learn how to use a sword, but not to have to use it. Now it’s for survival. Now she doesn’t have a choice. But each Stark sister’s current plotline did actually start from a seed of their own wishes.

What is a nightmare if not the flipside of a dream, right? That’s what makes it so painful. Arya’s disillusionment is expressed externally. (Doesn’t she break the toy soldiers she sees kids playing with?) With Sansa, it’s all internal, and we get a good look at her thought-processes here. She senses something’s not as it seems. She has only herself to mull it over with, though.

So. Here we are. Another Sansa chapter. And the verdict is … this chapter is GOOD, ACTUALLY. I know. I’m as surprised as all of you by my own admission. Emmett, you’re absolutely right that this chapter works as a brilliant re-read chapter. And Sarah, you’re right that Sansa is getting prepped to receive what she wants in the worst possible way. To me, what makes this chapter a really good chapter on this re-read is that Sansa realizes that something is amiss amidst all of the seemingly good times. More than that, Sansa demonstrates that despite the horrors she’s witnessed, her heart remains noble. She still cares about people and desperately wants them to avoid experiencing the horrors she’s witnessed and felt in King’s Landing. Damn. This is a really good chapter even if it kicks off with a dress.

Foreshadowing/Groundwork

The younger Tyrell cousins will return to prominence as part of the Margaery moon tea subplot in AFFC.

Sansa dreams that she has to marry Ilyn Payne instead; Joffrey will threaten her with that exact scenario before she marries Tyrion.

I don’t know if this will happen in any form in the books, but remember Littlefinger’s sort of unhinged quote from the Thrones show, “Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind.” Sansa’s not anywhere near that level of operating style, but she’s taken a first step in that direction, where she’s anticipating problems and how she’ll react. Under Littlefinger’s tutelage that may be where she’s headed.

Kevan Lannister uses the same language about the gutters running red with blood in the ADWD Epilogue, and while the framing there is what will happen if they confront the Sparrows, the chapter has the line: Lannister spearmen in crimson cloaks and lion-crested halfhelms stood along the west wall of the throne room. Tyrell guards in green cloaks faced them from the opposite wall. The chill in the throne room was palpable signalling that the gutters of King’s Landing may still run red with Tyrell and Lannister blood.

Theory/Discussion

Sarah, let’s talk about your book!

It’s called HOLLYWOOD ENDING and it came out in paperback this fall from Kensington Books, co-written with Sarvenaz Tash under the pen name Tash Skilton because we think we’re Fleetwood Mac or something. The book came about partially from missing the show, and that feeling of Sunday-night anticipation, theorizing with my husband, and wondering if the finale marked the end of an era in terms of collective TV viewing.

Back in college, Nina and Sebastian were best friends and super-fans who bonded over their shared love of a Thrones-esque TV show, Castles of Rust and Bone. They’d host viewing parties in the dorm and stay up all night discussing it, but when the show is abruptly canceled, their friendship happens to fall apart around the same time. Cut to five years later and they’re both living in L.A., and Castles is being rebooted. Nina's a social media coordinator for the streaming service that will air the show (WatchGoNowPlus), and Sebastian is a PA for the production company.

The paperback blurb reads, “A friends-to-lovers rom-com that explores the hilarious highs and lows of adulting, Hollywood, and what happens when BFFs are forced to take a hard second look at their favorite fandoms--and at each other.”

A good piece of advice I got in writing fiction is to ask, “What’s the worst thing that could happen to this character? What’s their worst fear?” And then do that thing. Figure out their specific nightmare and then subject them to it. Anything less won’t unleash their full potential to grow and learn, and it won’t be as satisfying for the reader as it could be, because readers will sense on some level you held back. GRRM never holds back.

Like we talked about with Arya and Sansa earlier, and how technically they got what they wanted, but it’s like the Witch in INTO THE WOODS, the wish got twisted all around.

In Hollywood Ending I took that edict to heart, too. The dream is to work at the favorite show. The nightmare is when the dream comes true and you learn too much. You long for the days of ignorance and innocence again. That’s the framework of the story, and we had a lot of fun working within it and imagining the awful behind-the-scenes aspects. I have interned at a network TV so there was (cough) some inspiration there. Within the love story, the fear is, “If I act on my romantic feelings for this person, will that destroy our friendship?” Having lost each other once before, they’re even more scared this time around to take that risk. But what do they lose out on by NOT acting? We wanted to make it as much com as rom.

It’s a “kissing story” so Bran would not be pleased, but mainly it’s a love letter to Los Angeles, and fandom, a tongue-in-cheek but sincere look at the agony and ecstasy of being a fan, and an unabashed appreciation for the connections fans make with each other through their shared interests.

I know that some NotACast cohosts prefer audiobooks, and it’s available that way too, as well as in ebook. And don’t worry it’s not me on the recording doing a bad Littlefinger voice or anything.

I can briefly mention how I got into the books / wanted to be a writer. As a kid I wrote Tad Williams a letter when I was 10 about Tailchaser’s Song, and he wrote back, telling me about his then-forthcoming Dragonbone Chair. I wasn’t interested in it at the time because it was about people. Ten-year-old me: A fantasy book NOT about cats? Pass!  It was only recently I learned that that series helped inspire ASOIAF.

Conclusion


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