Patreon Episode #23: "The Stone is Strong: A Tour of Winterfell" ft. Special Guest Joe Buckley SHOW NOTES!

Hello and welcome to a very special Not A Cast podcast, the podcast that usually goes through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter a week. But not here. Oh no. Not here. 

I’m one of your hosts, Jeff, better known as BryndenBFish. 

And I’m your other host, Emmett, better known as PoorQuentyn. 

Welcome to our twentieth-third patreon-only episode, titled: “The Stone is Strong”, in which we take a deep dive on the most important location in the world of ice and fire. That’s right: Qarth. 

Just kidding, it’s Winterfell! And we have the perfect guest to talk about it. Intro Joe

Joe says hi

If you subscribe to our patreon, you’ll be getting at least one of these episodes a month if you subscribe for only $5/month. Our intent in doing these special patreon episodes is to broaden out from our usual chapter by chapter and talk about some of the topics that interest us more broadly. Here, we’ll talk theories, do character discussion or talk the meta that if you follow us on social media or read our writings is where we make our bread and butter.

But because this is our holiday gift, and many of you listening may not have heard of all we offer on patreon, here’s a Michael Bay-style shot/reverse shot of all our episodes only available for our Poor Fellow and above patrons!

• Why A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is better than A STORM OF SWORDS (Patreon Special Episode! - This one is free!)
• The Fate of the White Knight (Will Barristan Selmy turncloak on Dany? This one is also a freebie!)
• Why Is THE WINDS OF WINTER Taking So Goddamn Long?
• A Burning Crown: The Endgame of King Stannis
• Old Volantis, Doomed Volantis: The Past, Present and Future of the First Daughter of Valyria
• The Hammer of Westeros: An Analysis of Robert Baratheon
• Stump the Chumps, Part 1 (Mass Q&A)
• Stump the Chumps, Part 2 "Amen Brother"  (Mass Q&A, part 2)
• FIRE AND BLOOD, VOLUME ONE, Part 1: Aegon I - Jaehaerys I
• FIRE AND BLOOD, VOLUME ONE, Part 2: "The Dying (or Dance) of the Dragons"
• FIRE AND BLOOD, VOLUME ONE, Part 3: "The Regency of Aegon III"
• FIRE AND BLOOD, VOLUME ONE, Part 4: "Stump the Chumps"
• A Shadow of a Crown: Jon Snow and Young Griff
• Winter Fell (Game of Thrones Season 8 predictions)
• The Night Lamp: How Stannis will win the battle of ice and lose the war
• Curtain Call  (Game of Thrones S08 retrospective)
• Whitewashed: Dany, Jon and Tyrion in Game of Thrones
• We Should Start Back: AGOT in Review
• Steamboat Georgie (Intro to FEVRE DREAM)
• Changes (ASOIAF Ideas and Theories we've changed our minds on)
• Botchmen (Our analysis of Zack Snyder's 2009 film WATCHMEN)
• "Rise Again": A Complete Analysis of the Greyjoy Rebellion 

Spoiler warning: All published books - 5 novels, 3 Dunk and Egg novellas, histories, interviews, TWOW sample chapters, as well as Game of Thrones the TV show. Anything and everything!

Ice Breaker

Tell us all about your book, Joe!

History of Winterfell

[Tyrion] remembered Winterfell as he had last seen it. Not as grotesquely huge as Harrenhal, nor as solid and impregnable to look at as Storm's End, yet there had been a great strength in those stones, a sense that within those walls a man might feel safe. (ACOK, Tyrion XI)

Who built Winterfell?

• As always with his history, George likes to play fast and loose with the history.
• You’re a subscriber to our patreon; so, we all know the story that Bran the Builder built the Wall, Storm’s End and Winterfell
• But TWOIAF adds its realist lens on who built Winterfell:
• As Brandon the Builder is connected with an improbable number of great works (Storm's End and the Wall, to name but two prominent examples) over a span of numerous lifetimes, the tales have likely turned some ancient king, or a number of different kings of House Stark (for there have been many Brandons in the long reign of that family) into something more legendary.
• Some of the land around Winterfell seems to confirm Maester Yandel’s account as the land which Winterfell was built upon wasn’t leveled, seeming to indicate it was built piecemeal
• If 8000 years is accurate it's fun to think how many buildings have risen and fallen in that time period that we just have zero evidence for now. Could have looked entirely different at different time periods
• Still, I don’t think we should entirely dismiss the magical origins of the castle.
• The name itself Winter Fell along with the proposed timing of its construction: after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night point to the involvement of the supernatural or magical in the timing of Winterfell’s construction and why the castle was  was raised up.
• We’re about to record ACOK, Bran III two days from when we record this episode, and I am wondering whether the song sung during the feast The Night That Ended, the song that depicts the battle between the Others and the Night’s Watch, depicts an event that occurred at Winterfell itself. 
• Is the site of Winterfell itself where the Last Hero and the Night’s Watch and Children of the Forest defeated the Others, where winter, the Others fell or was defeated?
• But Joe, I also liked the theory from your book that the location was selected for something unique to Winterfell (The Hot Springs).

Ancient History (Early Winterfell to Aegon’s Arrival)

• Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. (TWOIAF, The Kings of Winter)
• Seat of House Stark
• Even without hard dates or key events it is possible to piece together a kind of journey of Stark-domination around the north as they added each area to Winterfell’s rule. (And its important to think what state society was in if we believe this was shortly after the Long Night) I won’t go through it all now for you but it seems they got the Wolfswood first then moved clockwise from the south until it was just the pesky Boltons left.
• Ancient history has Winterfell being burned by King Royce II Bolton at some point in its history -- possibility that the castle was rebuilt -- something  that Joe brought up before

Winterfell in the Era of the Targaryens/Baratheons

• Aegon I visited in 33 AC
  • Only Great Castle to not be visited by at least one Dragon during the Conquest (maybeeee Riverrun too)
  • Torrhen’s unnamed daughter was sent south to marry Ronnel Arryn of the Eyrie and presumably died when Ronnel was thrown through the Moon Door by his brother in 37 AC. Possibly the start of the superstition that bad things happens to Starks who go south
• Alysanne’s visit
  • Alaric takes Jaehaerys straight down to the crypts in the same way Ned does with Robert. Dead brother for Alaric. Dead sister for Ned. Kind of notes I simply can’t ignore
• Did Vermax lay dragon eggs? (yes)
• Bael the Bard legend
  • Whether this occurred or not is unclear, but based on some context clues, if this happened, it likely happened after Aegon’s Conquest -- mention of a Lord Stark and the kingsroad
  • Regardless, Bael uses the architecture of Winterfell to hide inside the castle and father a Stark bastard with Lord Brandon the Daughterless’ … daughter 
• Cregan vs Bennard is a great example of how Winterfell/the Starks aren’t perfect or completely exempt from the ambition or politics of every other castle. We see very similar stories in the Eyrie, the Red Keep and elsewhere
• During the dance of the dragons, Jace Velaryon came to Winterfell and allegedly went to bone-town with Sara Snow -- bastard daughter of Cregan Stark
  • Mushroom claims that Sara and Jace wed in secret in front of the Heart Tree before bonetown -- though everyone besides Mushroom denies it, meaning it’s true. 
  • Once Jace leaves Winterfell never sees another dragon (so far as we know)
• One of the intriguing aspects of Winterfell is how it began to be overshadowed as the Targaryens rose -- at least insofar as the history of the place goes

Architecture of Winterfell

Two sets of walls

• One of my favorite details about Winterfell is its two walls: the outer and inner walls
• Originally (or legendarily) built by King Edrick Snowbeard, the construction took two decades to complete.
• The inner wall was raised first and is 100 feet high. Then a moat was dug. Then the outer wall was constructed beyond the moat and is 80 feet high.
• The outer wall is shorter than the inner wall. Why?
  • Any attacker who succeeds in capturing the outer wall would still find defenders on the inner walls loosing spears and stones and arrows down at him.
• Differently shaped towers on each wall. Octagonal on the outer, square on the inner, backing up the idea of different styles/advances in technology between building
• Battlements Gate is also very clever. Bridges the two walls but doesn’t have an adjoining opening in the outer wall, so defenders can be shifted from inner to outer but discourages penetration of the outer
• Tend to believe these walls had to be a knockout due to Winterfell having nearly zero geographical defences right outside. They are all further afield compared to other Great Castles.

Great Hall

• Room enough to feast the entire nobility of the North and have a room for dancing per the Harvest Feast from ACOK
• Also room enough for the Boltons to have most of the army stationed there along with stabling their horses.

The Crypts

• All Stark kings and lords buried there. Older Starks buried with their direwolves
  • Exception seems to have been Lyanna and Brandon
• Several layers of Starks buried -- father from the surface, the older and colder it gets.
• Crypt statues have supernatural abilities? Ned thinks that crypt statues judge him when he speaks with Robert

Hot Springs

• One of the larger engineering marvels of the series (especially considering its potential age) and absolutely the best use of geography of any castle in terms of both survival and the contract of being a safe haven for the smallfolk of the north

Godswood

• Three acres!! Pretty much only real world measurement we get on any castle other than Rock & Harrenhal, but it gives an idea of how big the rest of Winterfell is. That, as well as all its named areas makes it the closest to something like Hogwarts where you can get an idea of its intrinsic size
• Continued from your previous Tyrion quote is the best summary of the godswood in the entire series: “That wood was Winterfell. It was the north. I never felt so out of place as I did when I walked there, so much an unwelcome intruder.” This is from someone who grew up with Cersei and Tywin at Casterly Rock and who has Stannis knocking on the door in a chapter’s time, but he sums up Winterfell a lot better than I did.
  • He’s also dead on. Theon never dares touch the Godswood (but is happy to kill Septon Chayle). Neither does Ramsay or Roose. Even those three aren’t that stupid.

Tunnel system

• You could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you.

Real World Inspirations

Feels Welsh, doesn’t it? Maybe Beaumaris? Harlech? 

Winterfell in ASOIAF

As Joe says, the castle is home, and Winterfell is home for better or worse. I say “for worse” because while Winterfell is a source of life and light for so many, it also hurts so much to be away from it for exactly that reason. The advantage of itinerance is that it never feels like part of you is missing. What makes Winterfell such an effective setting in ASOIAF is this two-fisted approach. Sansa’s wistful memories of the place are contrasted with Littlefinger imagining it as cold and grim. Bran and Theon come at the the castle from opposite angles, the genuine and erzatz Princes of Winterfell. And then there’s Jon, who connects the castle as aspiration to the castle as curse. But as Joe also says, you can see an arc in Winterfell itself, from cozy hearth and home to haunted ruin. What emotions do we most associate with Winterfell as a setting?

Weird for me, but I associate it with going over to my best friend’s house out in the sticks in late Fall/Early winter and doing a giant bonfire. The feeling of warmth against the cold. It’s homey for me. That’s the emotion I feel. And when it gets burned in ACOK, it feels almost an equivalent gut punch to major character deaths in the story: Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Quentyn. And then I feel outrage when the Boltons and Freys take over the castle. Hopefully, I’ll feel a small moment of schadenfreude when the perpetrators of the Red Wedding get Stannis’d in TWOW. And when the Starks take the castle back at some point, I imagine I’ll feel a fleeting happiness before the Others arrive. And at the end of all time, I’ll feel bittersweet at Sansa’s crowning and how the castle survives yet scarred.

Winterfell upon Endgame

• Battle of Ice and aftermath
  • Night Lamp
  • Wither Stannis?
  • Wither Rickon?
• Jon’s claim
• Sansa’s claim
• The Long-ish Night
• The Rebuilder

Conclusion

• Thanks for listening!
• Tell us where to find you on the Internet, Joe!
• Rate and review us on itunes, google play, etc
• Patreon/advertise/where we can find our work/social media
• Follow us on social media (Make sure to mention @NotACastASOIAF and our e mail: NotACastASOIAF@gmail.com)
• See ya!