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Episode 62: A GAME OF THRONES, TYRION VIII: "The Iron Rose" SHOW NOTES!

Added 2019-05-13 14:01:01 +0000 UTC

Hello and welcome to the Not A Cast … podcast: the one true chapter-by-chapter podcast going through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter a week. I’m one of your hosts Emmett, better known as PoorQuentyn.

And I’m your other host Jeff, better known as BryndenBFish.

Welcome to the sixty-second episode of the Not A Cast, entitled: “The Iron Rose: An Analysis of AGOT, Tyrion VIII,” in which Tyrion has yet another frosty conversation with his dear old Dad, meets the woman he’ll murder at the end of book three, and then gets knocked out by a hammer, thus missing the battle…

...oh wait, that’s the show. No offense, they didn’t have the budget to bring the Battle of the Green Fork to life! But books don’t have budgets, so we’re gonna get to dive into the real deal.

Yes indeed, and don’t worry, dear listeners, you’re not having a stroke: we’ve switched our usual roles for this episode! As Tyrion VIII features the first large scale battle in ASOIAF, one that I’ve written a great deal about over the years, we thought it would make sense for Emmett to handle the synopsis duties for this chapter and for me to anchor the depth section with all that military strategy stuff I love. Plus, it’s just fun to shake things up every once in a while, am I right?

This episode is brought to you by our Small Council: 

Thank you councillors very much!

Spoiler warning: All published books - 5 novels, 3 Dunk and Egg novellas, histories, interviews, TWOW sample chapters, as well as Game of Thrones the TV show. Anything and everything!

Question

Ser KW Dent of the Blood of the Podcast … podcast asks:

M’athchomaroon qoyi qoyi! Perhaps I am jumping the gun with this question as you good fellas get to the end of A Game of Thrones, but who, in your never humble opinion, has the best singular arc within the first novel? 
It seems pretty clear that Ned and Dany are the two “main characters” of this novel. However, a dark horse candidate seems like Catelyn. Through her eyes we see Winterfell, Kings Landing, The Eyrie and Riverrun. We get Tyrion’s (first) trial, The Battle of The Whispering Woods, and the crowning of The King in the North. 
Oh, and she fought off a man with a Valyrian Steel blade, like a BAMF.
Also, if Jeff corrected my conjugation of Dothraki, everyone has to take a drink.

Announced our next youtube livestream: AGOT, Arya V on May 27!

Synopsis

Tywin Lannister and his bannermen are sitting down to dinner when Tyrion turns up late. He wants nothing more than to eat some delicious pork and get very very drunk--relatable--but the others insist on talking shop. Tywin notes that the Freys have joined Robb as we saw in Catelyn IX, Lord Lefford complains about the truly unreasonable amount of axes demanded by Shagga, and then Uncle Kevan drops the bomb: when it comes to battle against the Northmen, they want Tyrion in the vanguard. And not even in command, but serving under Ser Gregor Clegane! Tywin and Tyrion exchange poisonous insults laden with even more poisonous subtext, because that’s just how they roll, and then Tyrion storms off. He hears laughter erupt behind him, and hopes they all choke. I’d quote “Exit Music” by Radiohead here, but Jeff would have me killed.

Tyrion tries to find his way back to his tent, but promptly gets lost, and wanders around for a while taking in life in the camp. He witnesses a bunch of little vignettes, and thinks to himself:

No one looked at him. No one spoke to him. No one paid him any mind. He was surrounded by men sworn to House Lannister, a vast host twenty thousand strong, and yet he was alone.

That’s a perfect summary of Tyrion’s story right there! Always in the midst of armies and cities and big bloody setpieces, yet feeling alone every step of the way.

When he does eventually find his tent, Bronn is hanging out with a couple of new characters: Podrick Payne, the one true squire, and a young woman named Shae. Tyrion had asked Bronn to procure him a new love interest, and to make sure that she knew “what I am” as well as “who I am,” because Tyrion hates seeing that flash of revulsion in a woman’s eyes when she’s brought before him without knowing about his stature beforehand. Shae introduces herself with some flirty banter, and Tyrion lays out the deal: he’s paying her not only to sleep with him, but also to act as his paramour. Pour my wine, rub my legs, laugh at my hilarious jokes, and oh yeah, you’re not allowed to bang anyone else. Shae, being a savvy young entrepreneur, agrees to those terms and the two have sex. Afterwards, Tyrion thinks to himself about how he hadn’t gotten laid since before the series started, and how he needed this after everything he’s been through. He starts singing the Tysha song to her, and oh no, I already see where this is going!!

He leaves her to sleep and has a friendly little chat with Bronn about how exactly Shae came into his service. Bronn pledges to keep Tyrion safe during the battle, and Tyrion promises that Bronn can name his reward if they make it out alive. Shae wakes up when Tyrion returns to the tent, and the two have sex again; this time, Tyrion is almost able to feel something for her. For him, that qualifies as a breakthrough, I guess. He goes to sleep smiling…

...and wakes up to find all hell breaking loose!

Trumpets are blaring, Shae is terrified, Podrick is still snoring because of course he is, and finally Bronn rides up in armor to drop the bomb just like Uncle Kevan did earlier. 

“The Stark boy stole a march on us,” Bronn said. “He crept down the kingsroad in the night, and now his host is less than a mile north of here, forming up in battle array.”

Yep, that sure is Robb himself leading that host, 100% accurate report there. Anyway, Tyrion commands Bronn to get the clansmen ready for battle and then commands Pod and Shae to help get him ready for battle. He owns a suit of armor expertly crafted to fit his body, but alas, it’s back at the Rock, so he has to make do with mismatched odds and ends. Not exactly doing wonders for Tyrion’s already terrible self-image. Tyrion tells Shae to weep for him if he dies, because for all his practiced cynicism Tyrion is a Byronic emo at heart just like Jon Snow, which is why they became friends. With that, Tyrion rides off, wondering if he’ll ever see another dawn, if that makes him a coward, if Jaime ever had thoughts like this before battle. The clansmen join him, and goddamn, the description of the Army of the West preparing to fight is just beautiful: 

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming. 

That’s the kind of writing that’s so good it makes me angry. Why can’t I write like that?! 

GRRM then lays out the Lannister formation for us in glorious detail. Uncle Kevan holds the center, comprised mostly of ranks of archers, pikemen, and men-at-arms with a knot of lords and knights around Kevan himself. The bulk of the cavalry is found on the right, a “great steel fist” led by Ser Addam Marbrand, one of Tywin’s most competent and least evil underlings. Tywin himself, of course, will be commanding the reserve from atop the hill where he can watch everything unfold. Tyrion spots him from afar, wearing his truly over-the-top armor and cloak. I swear, you could feed the Riverlands just by pawning what Tywin wears to war. 

And then there’s the left! Hoo boy. The left wing is considerably less impressive than the others. Don’t say it, Jeff, I can see the political joke forming on your lips. Outside the clansmen, you’ve got some mounted archers, a bunch of freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands and young boys who have clearly never seen battle before...Tyrion calls it “the sweepings of the West,” but Bronn only needs two syllables to sum it up. “Crow food.” 

Thankfully, the Mountain is in command. Why thankfully? Well, as Bronn says, if you follow a man that big into battle, the enemy’s going to be focused on him and not you! Still, Tyrion is full of questions. What can Tywin have been thinking? Why did the Northmen force march through the night, leaving them exhausted for the fight itself? Above all: did Robb Stark bring the direwolves with him from Winterfell? Tyrion has some history with them, you see. 

No time for questions, though, because the Northern infantry has arrived. The gang’s all here, from the Glovers to the Hornwoods to the Freys, but while the Stark banner is ubiquitous, Tyrion can’t seem to spot Robb himself. Hm, wonder why that could be! The northmen blow their warhorns; the Lannister trumpets pale before them, and that gives both Tyrion and me the chills.

Ser Gregor gives the order to attack, and they all ride forward. The Karstarks have formed a crescent of spears, but Gregor being Gregor, he bursts right through at cost of his horse’s life. The clansmen rush to exploit the gap he’s made, pounding past Tyrion even as he shouts for them to follow him. A flight of arrows lands on both sides (curious…) but the advantage is clearly with the Westermen, as the Karstark crescent crumbles before Gregor and the clans.

Finally, the fighting reaches Tyrion himself. He fends off a man-at-arms or two, glimpsing Bronn taking on several opponents at once with his customary skill and speed. One particularly vocal Northman attacks Tyrion again and again, screaming for him to die, but then Tyrion’s horse bites half the dude’s face off. Gnarly. Tyrion finishes off Two-Face, but then gets smacked off his horse by a morningstar-wielding knight shouting “For Eddard and Winterfell!” Tyrion lies stunned on the ground as the knight spins his morningstar and demands he yield or die. Tyrion, clever man that he is, chooses a third option: shoving the ridiculous foot-long spike on his helm right into the chest of the knight’s horse. Again, gnarly. These poor horses just can’t catch a break! 

The knight winds up trapped under his dead horse, no longer demanding Tyrion yield, but instead yielding to him. Tyrion pauses to take stock of the battlefield as a whole and realizes that his side is winning; the fighting has moved to the center, where Uncle Kevan is pushing the Northmen back. Bronn turns up just after the nick of time and helps Tyrion find his helmet. Meanwhile, Tywin enters the fray with the reserve, shattering the Northern lines and decisively winning the Battle of the Green Fork. Enjoy that feeling while ya can, shitheel! 

Tyrion and Bronn check in on the clansmen. Roughly half are dead, including Ulf and Conn. Shagga was hit with a bunch of arrows, but most got caught in his mail and leather, and those that pierced the skin didn’t do much damage. Chella collected four ears, so it’s not all bad news! 

Tyrion then sets off to find Tywin. The lion lord is drinking wine (like father, like son) when Tyrion confronts him about the “travesty” that was the left wing. Again, Jeff, don’t you dare make the joke. Tywin explains that he was hoping the left would break, so Robb would pursue and then get flanked by Kevan while Tywin brought in the reserve. Tyrion is pissed off that Tywin not only endangered his life but kept him in the dark about it; Tywin shoots back that “a feigned rout is less convincing,” but also that he is “not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages.” This from the man who brings the Bloody Mummers to Westeros! Hypocrisy much, Tywin? 

Ironically, the clansmen were just too damn good at fighting for this plan to work--the left wing never collapsed, and Robb proved more difficult to manipulate than Tywin anticipated. Speaking of which, Addam Marbrand comes riding up to tell the Lannister men what the reader already knows: the Young Wolf wasn’t here in the first place. Northern prisoners have confessed that he took command of the cavalry at the Twins and is riding to Riverrun to break Jaime’s siege. 

So much for Robb Stark being a green boy with more courage than sense, as Tywin described him in Tyrion’s last chapter! Even as the Lannister victory suddenly turns to ash, all Tyrion wants to do is laugh at his father’s folly...if he didn’t hurt so much from the battle, that is.

And that is AGOT, Tyrion VIII! It’s not the most cohesive chapter in the series, because the introduction of Shae and Pod doesn’t really connect with the Battle of the Green Fork; you could argue they should’ve been split into separate chapters. But the content itself is still great. The introduction of Shae is effective, the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion remains very strong in a dramatic sense, and of course, we get our first big battle in ASOIAF. You can sense how excited GRRM is to get to that, and I know you were as well, Jeff! How’d this reread go for you? 

Depth

You’re right about this chapter being not terribly cohesive, and boy oh boy, is it long. By audible’s count (because didn’t read, can’t read), this chapter is the longest chapter in AGOT. It’s super long! But did I love it? Would me, a person with an established love of military analysis and minutiae love this chapter?

You’re goddamned right I loved this chapter. 

When you all come to this section of the podcast, you know that Emmett is going to deliver information to you in a manner as befits the intellectual laurels that he so humbly bears. But here you are with me, and we’re about to get into the mud. And because it’s also me, we’re about to get into the shade too. There was a time in eons long ago when battles were planned, when even hippies could write a compelling battle scene in their fantasy story where battles and battle planning made sense as well as were cinematic. But it’s not the battle that makes this chapter brilliant. The battle is great, and George can really write a battle scene. But what makes this chapter so compelling is the character and thematic elements GRRM sets up in this chapter that will dominate Tyrion’s storyline for the first three books. And finally how GRRM does something we’ve noticed in this re-read: culminates a POV’s storyline in the penultimate chapter before giving them an epilogue chapter. And what a culmination for Tyrion of House Lannister here: a battle where Tyrion fights for a father and family that despises him and wants him dead. Hm, wonder if this is a metaphor for Tyrion’s coming ACOK/ASOS arc ... 

War Council with a Dad who wants you dead

The Dwarf, the Sellsword and the Sex Worker

Build-up to the Battle

The Battle of the Green Fork

The Battle and the Dwarf

Foreshadowing/Groundwork

“My giant of Lannister” is first used by Shae to describe Tyrion as they go to bonetown. It’s Shae who comes up with the wording, and boy oh boy does that work as setup for George to break Tyrion in his trial when Shae testifies against him:

“He used me every way there was, and . . . he used to make me tell him how big he was. My giant, I had to call him, my giant of Lannister."

Tywin is more right than he knows when he says that “your brother Jaime would be eager to come to grips with [Robb Stark]” but as we’ll see next week, that’s not actually a good thing! Jaime’s recklessness and eagerness for a fight causes him to ride right into Robb’s trap at the Whispering Wood. You really pick up on reread how Tywin is praising Jaime for all the wrong reasons, which is why he’s thrown for a loop in ASOS when Jaime adopts a different worldview.

This isn’t the only time Kevan will act as Tywin’s voice in council--Tyrion notes the same dynamic going on in the Small Council in ASOS. This is in part just a realistic take on how politicians operate, but it’s also setting up Kevan as Tywin’s sycophantic shadow, something he’ll wrestle with when he becomes a significant character in his own right after Tywin’s death. 

“He bought loyalty with gold, and compelled obedience with his name” will pay off in a variety of ways in Tyrion’s story, but one that stuck out to me on reread was how he joins forces with Brown Ben Plumm to escape slavery in ADWD. He buys his loyalty with the promise of gold and making good on his name, saying he’ll conquer the Rock for himself and turn its resources over to sellswords, rather than simply drawing directly from Dad’s largesse as he has his whole life. When his story starts, Tyrion has direct access to Lannister wealth, but no control over it; as of the end of ADWD, he has no access to it, but can offer the potential of controlling it. 

Wouldn’t you know it, but Tyrion remembers the Battle of the Green Fork in TWOW, specifically two spots.  The first is that Tyrion remembers Shae, when Penny says:

"I never meant to make you angry," Penny said "Forgive me. I'm frightened, is all." She touched his hand.
Tyrion wrenched away from her. "I'm frightened." Those were the same words Shae had used. Her eyes were big as eggs, and I swallowed every bit of it. I knew what she was. I told Bronn to find a woman for me and he brought me Shae. His hands curled into fists, and Shae's face swam before him, grinning. Then the chain was tightening about her throat, the golden hands digging deep into her flesh as her own hands fluttered against his face with all the force of butterflies. If he'd had a chain to hand...if he'd had a crossbow, a dagger, anything, he would have...he might have...he...It was only then that Tyrion heard the shouts. He was lost in a black rage, drowning in a sea of memory. (TWOW, Tyrion II)

Comparing to:

Shae was shaking him by the shoulder. "M'lord," she whispered. "Wake up, m'lord. I'm frightened."

What’s very interesting in TWOW is that Tyrion remembers the Green Fork over the Blackwater:

It was queer, but Tyrion remembered the Green Fork much better than the Blackwater. It was my first. You never forget your first. He remembered the fog drifting off the river, wending through the reeds like pale white fingers. And the beauty of that sunrise, he remembered that as well: stars strewn across a purple sky, the grass glittering like glass with the morning dew, red splendor in the east. He remembered the touch of Shae's fingers as she helped Pod with Tyrion's mismatched armor. That bloody helm. Like a bucket with a spike. That spike had saved him, though, had won him his first victory, but Groat and Penny had never looked half as silly as he must have looked that day. Shae had called him "fearsome" when she saw him in his steel, mind you. How could I have been so blind, so deaf, so stupid? I should have known better than to do my thinking with my cock.

Theory/Discussion

So, Jeff! Roose Bolton may be an unambiguous villain who betrays and murders his king, but rereading this chapter, hey, at least he does one thing correctly: giving it his all as commander of the Northern infantry, fighting on behalf of all Stark men against their hated foe, right? Right??

Oh, you sweet summer child...allow me to blow your mind. Roose Bolton threw this battle. 

Whaaaaaat

Okay, fine, let me back-up, because I already can hear your objection. But Jeff, you say grabbing a pringles can and dumping the bottom crumbles into your triangle-shaped mouth, Didn’t George say …

Yes. George addressed this in a So Spake Martin from 2001, and let me read the entire exchange:

Questioner: There are some that think that Roose had treachery in mind from the minute Robb left Winterfell. That his battle against Tywin was against Robb's wishes and meant to weaken the other Northern Houses. I believe he first thought of treachery after Stannis was defeated and Highgarden joined with the Lannisters. Could you clarify any of this or will is it something that is to be revealed later?
GRRM: Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself.

And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that. - So Spake Martin, 2001.

So, case close, right? 

No. No. No.

It’s not plotting to betray Robb Stark with Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey or stabbing Robb Stark through the literal heart, sure. I get it. Roose Bolton has not committed to the Lannister cause at this point in the story. This probably happens after he takes Harrenhal from Amory Lorch in A Clash of Kings. But can we come to the some common fucking ground that what Roose Bolton does in the battle is either a) stupid or b) throwing the battle?

And if there’s something we know about Roose Bolton, he’s not stupid. In fact, when he has motivation to want to win a battle, he uses extremely smart tactics. And we know this when he takes Harrenhal in ACOK by infiltrating men into the castle as “prisoners” with the intent to open the gates and let his army into the castle. Yes, at some month down the road, I will greatly expand on this in some part of my long overdue “The Broken Country” essay series. 

Anyways, let’s get into Roose Bolton’s conduct as commander in the battle itself. While we don’t have a POV in the northern army side of the battle, we do know some things about the battle from Tyrion’s POV, namely:

  1. The composition of the forces that are in front of Tyrion

    He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey.
    1. Again, it’s worth pointing out which banner is absent: the flayed man of the Dreadfort. Where are they? 
  2. The tactics of the northmen in the battle
    1. They steal a march on the Lannisters overnight and remain one mile north of Tywin
      1. Neat tactics by Roose, right? He gets the jump on Tywin except …
        1. As Steven Attewell pointed out in his analysis of Tyrion VIII, why in the world didn’t they keep pushing forward on into Tywin’s camp and actually win the damn battle.
        2. Instead, Roose allows the Lannister army to form up for battle.
        3. “But wait, BFish,” your triangle mouth says, forming new arguments, “Roose Bolton is a cautious commander. He would take stock in things before proceeding forward. He’s CAUTIOUS!”
          1. Yeah, except he ain’t, because ...
    2. When they finally meet in battle, the northmen gather on a hilltop and then:

      The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.
      1. The fuck? The northmen are up on top of a hill, and then they come charging down from the high ground to engage the larger Lannister force on equal terrain with the Lannisters? Why? What’s the advantage in that?
        1. The high ground gives the northern foot a chance against the larger Lannister army -- the army that has more horse
          1. C.f. The Battle of Hastings and how Harold very nearly won the battle by keeping his mostly-infantry force atop the high ground until his hauscarls charged down the hill against the Norman knights of William the Conqueror.
        2. There really is no tactical advantage in rushing down the hill, and it’s quite uncautious, yes?
    3. Then, as Gregor and the rest of the vanguard are engaging the northern host, a strange event occurs:

      A flight of arrows descended on them; where they came from he could not say, but they fell on Stark and Lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. 
      1. Now, who would fire arrows on friends and foes alike on the battlefield? Perhaps Tywin was cruel enough to do so. Maybe he was hoping to incur the feigned retreat he wanted, but I doubt it. Tywin needed the Mountain Clansmen to break along the east bank of the Trident so that Kevan’s pikemen could fix the northern host on the riverbank while Addam Marbrand enveloped the Stark left flank, and Tywin pushed through with his reserve cavalry. 
      2. Tywin Lannister did have archers that were firing arrows from the Lannister right flank into the charging Northern infantry.

        As the horns died away, a hissing filled the air; a vast flight of arrows arched up from his right, where the archers stood flanking the road. The northerners broke into a run, shouting as they came, but the Lannister arrows fell on them like hail, hundreds of arrows, thousands, and shouts turned to screams as men stumbled and went down. 
      3. If arrows were being fired from the south, the clansmen would have no reason to backwards in the direction of the arrow fire.
      4. IMO, the arrows came from the Bolton side of things, because ...
    4. At no point does Roose Bolton commit any of his large (4000ish soldiers) to the battle.
      1. Instead all casualties are felt by other northern houses and the Freys as is indicated by the after-action report of battlefield casualties:

        “My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us.”

So, the endstate of the battle is that northern and river houses aligned to House Stark are committed to battle while Bolton soldiers take no part. And it’s especially interesting that the specific northern houses in the battle (Cerwyn, Manderly, Karstark and Hornwood) are all houses that either have deep ties to House Stark (Manderly and Cerwyn) or have lands bordering Dreadfort holdings (Hornwood and Karstark). 

Maybe Roose wanted to endanger these specific men? Maybe their placement in the battle was similar to Tyrion’s. Roose Bolton was trying to get these men killed. And it’s hard to take a look at what happens in ACOK when Ramsay starts doing his fuckery with Hornwood lands and not get the sense that Roose was manipulating events in the south to further his ambitions in the north.

Ultimately, GRRM’s wording is that the only way Roose loses the battle is if he is killed himself. That doesn’t sound like someone who wanted to win the battle outright. Would that same criteria apply to Robb Stark and his coming battle at the Whispering Wood and then the Battle of the Camps? I don’t think so.

Conclusion


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