FansOfAll
relattic
relattic

patreon


Poll: To Action Gameplay, Or Not To Action Gameplay?


(Concept Art "Kinky Demons")


Hey everyone,


Today, I'm coming to you with something that I've been thinking about for a long while, and I've decided to write up my whole thought process for you. I'm sorry that it is becoming a bit long, but it is about an important decision for the future of my games.


As you all know, I'm already planning the sequel to BMO TV called "Kinky Demons." I will only start working on this fully when BMO TV is almost complete, but since I possibly have to scale production up for this by hiring somebody, I have to plan ahead at least a little bit so I already know what I'm doing.


Here's the gist of the plot: At the true ending of BMO TV, the world has come to an unexpected turn where a demonic portal is opened, and monsters swarm into our world. In Kinky Demons, we jump ten years ahead into a world completely changed by this phenomenon. We meet Sam, who goes to a private military school where he doesn't fit in at all. Some unfortunate events lead him to go on an adventure outside the walls of the school, where he has to survive on his own. Interacting with the demons, however, might make you one yourself, and this also leads to realizations about Sam's gender identity and who these demons really are.


I really like the premise of this story. I did leave out a lot of the twisty nature of the story, of course. If you remember, I got concept funding from the state for this, so I already have a whole lot of the story planned out that I think will be epic.

However, the one big pillar that I'm still unsure about is gameplay.


When I started out with BMO TV, I wanted to break the tradition of text games at TFGames.Site, and so I came up with the idea for a fully graphic version of an already beloved concept. In the history of video games, story-driven games evolved from text-based games to point-and-click adventures, so it was only natural to transform a text-based concept into a point-and-click adventure. It's the natural evolution, but the gameplay remains mainly the same. We've seen a lot of the same historical evolution of text games happen with other TFGames, like the map system of Trap Quest or the merging of action gameplay into text games in X-Change Life. It feels like it's a slow process to go from Twine to something more graphical and action-focused, even though this exact shift in video games has already happened fifty years ago in the video game industry as a whole.

We also have RPGMaker games, but they are stiff and unlikely to evolve much because they are, by design, made to imitate the past, not the future.

Of course, most of this is because of limited resources. This is still mostly a hobbyist community, after all. But then we have the success of this Patreon, and I can't stop thinking that maybe we can use the resources to make something that is not set out from the beginning to work without the need for financial support. BMO TV is actually already a bit like that but the base concept was to just buy backgrounds and character art depending on what the financial support allows for every month. The success of the Patreon has made the scope increase a lot. However, the base concept is still conceptualized with less than half of the financial support in mind.


So, I became a little ambitious and imagined an action-adventure in the likes of Diablo or Hades, where you can gain certain monstrous traits from the demons around you to use in a sort of Rogue Hack'n'Slash gameplay and then visit cities of demons where you can talk to them and have romantic relationships with them, play events where you transform your body both in gender and monstrousness, etc. It's not an unfeasible concept. I'd just need a bit more help on the 2D or 3D graphics side of things, depending on what we decide to use.

But there's an obvious issue with this plan. The reason games haven't become more action-focused on TFGames might not necessarily be because these games aren't possible but because a lot of people don't play these games for the gameplay, and thus, it should not be the primary focus or take a lot of energy from the player. There's Corruption of Champions 2, which has exorbitant amounts of funding, but they still decided to make it a turn-based text game. And there are examples of action gameplay, like in "Rise of the Bimbies", which is a fun game, but didn't gain a big player base. I think the reason action gameplay didn't gain more traction is that players don't set out to play a game from this community for its mechanics but for its story and kinky nature. Here, we come back to a whole different point in the history of video games: the Ludology vs. Narratology debate.

This debate, in essence, concerns whether games should focus on gameplay or storytelling, and I think we all know that the resolution was to weave both together, as was my plan with Kinky Demons.

But we can now critically consider these two concepts as "kind of separate but having to work together" in the conceptualization of games. The balance between the two varies from game to game. The biggest factor to keep in mind, however, is always the target audience. So what if the target audience is not seeking action-focused gameplay?

The development of BMO TV has shown that all gameplay is often even disregarded as an obstacle, a way for me to slow the player down so they don't get to the "content" fast enough. I know not everybody thinks like this, but it has been the most surprising part of my work in the community. I can see this in something like Femdemic, but a puzzle in BMO TV doesn't give me that same feeling.


Gameplay is such an important part of the "content" for me. I'm not a big fan of games where you don't have to apply any strategy at all to reach your goal, like in pure visual novels. Or where you can't really steer the result of the "content".

For me, games are about strategizing to solve complex systems to reach a desired goal, whether this happens in an action game, a relaxed point-and-click adventure, or just through story choices. At the end of the day, the reward (e.g. story and/or transformations) you get for this has to be worth it, no matter what kind of gameplay there is. However, the player needs to be invested in the gameplay, not just the reward or the story, for the game to be considered good overall.

Now, this is not something that I can just "test out" without a lot of effort. Action Gameplay is more expensive to develop, especially if it's supposed to be good, and I'd need extra people to work on this. So before I jump into something that I'll regret, I want to do a poll to see what you all think.


Would you even like the general idea of a more action-focused game with all the TF goodness on top, or would you rather that I stick with what I know best already and create a relaxed experience?



Option A - A topdown action adventure where you learn attacks based on your transformation and have city hubs where you experience all the story, kinky, and transformation events. This would mean a switch between action gameplay and more relaxed exploration of the city and its NPCs, but you can't access new regions without beating the action gameplay of each region. (Update: I was told to clarify that this would have to include different difficulty modes)

Option B - Maybe we don't need the action gameplay and can just spend a lot of time in the city hubs. We can have all the same story events, learn about the demons, and such, but we don't need it to be about fighting at all, and we just focus on exploring the region with a similar gameplay system as in BMO TV, but I'd definitely add some strategic elements to it that I haven't thought of yet. Solving quests and thus reaching story events in the city would be the goal that unlocks traveling to other areas. Although, this would mean that all gameplay will be on the more relaxed side.


I'm not saying that I'll do whatever the community decides. I just want to see what you all think, and then I'll spend another year thinking about it before I make my decision. Having to hire people to work on something that I'm unsure about is a scary prospect and something I don't take lightly. However, I also want to make content that stands out, and there isn't much that would compare to what I have planned out there in the community. Then again, as I observed before, there might be a good reason for it. Namely, the player base not being interested in it.


So there you have it. My complete thought process about the future of "Kinky Demons".

Please let me know your thoughts.


I'll be back soon with the progress report for v0.6.6 of BMO TV.


Best,

Kim

Comments

Honestly, do what is fun - I like the text games, I like the graphic games, I have a non-zero number of days of playtime of Hades I and II - figure out what works and take it from there. The idea of a roguelite where each pass is a slow corruption arc doesn't seem like the worst of ideas to me.

SylvieTG

The digital card game format is already present in the BMO files. If you don't know it yet, you can also get it on the download page.

Rel

honestly when it comes to combat the ideal form i think would be a turn based card game style fighting system. Easy to do in one hand and with the posibility to be highly complex and interesting. Devote like the top 2/3rd of the screen to sprite animation that performs the attacks/ transformatives so you can see you and your opponent being transformed throughout the fight. Maybe have the TF be core to the combat system too. you mentioned hades so perhaps a rogue-lite where you have to avoid being TF-ed too much to avoid a bad-end (or good end) but that your a lot of your upgrades are also tied to the TF-process

thehunter

I liked the action gameplay with the defeat mechanisms of Karryn's prison. I think you should develop what you want so you don't lose interest

mrflagg1

I need to try Aika's game again. Haven't since Autumn 2023. CoC I didn't know there was a 2nd one. I probably played for weeks the first one. As for Kinky Demons, I'm game to try it with some action. But you probably noticed that I love walkthroughs. I beat BG 3 using a trainer so that all I really have to focus on is the story. Any good story is the main reason I play a game at all. Block me from accessing the game is fine, but give me the possibility of cheating through the hard parts would be nice (one could even charge a tiny extra for those that are like me if need be ^^)

chocolate_prophet

I would not say no to an action driven game. But games like BMOTV seem to fit more of a erotic nature. As they can be played with one hand, and... minimised without worry of being mid combat or action. Thats not to say that an action based game cannot be made, or made to work. But, as its erotica, single handed play should be a key design.

Napalm burns

Ah, I understand, I was looking at this more on the perspective of the game, and not so much the players. Your response just makes me want the action gameplay more then, but I guess the community will decide. I'm sure it will be great either way.

Alytimona

I don‘t think it is that action gameplay works less towards the themes of the game, quite the opposite in this case. However, it might work less towards the play habits of the community.

Rel

I've loved the blend of transformation games and roleplay and magic. The best thing I can recommend is keeping in mind the purpose of an erotic game. Whatever direction you take, keep the narratives intense and unique, the theme consistent, and your signature BMO TV vibe... I see multiple seasons, and multiple minor and major arcs, why not consider writing further out into the future to help conceptually keep updates fruitful, people employed and consumers on the right track. Keep it quirky.

Nathan

This is a hard choice, and I'm not even the one making the game, haha. I think the gameplay should always work in service of the themes and story, and making it action oriented might make that tough (call me unimaginative, if you will). But from what I read from your responses, you seem very confident you can make it happen, and seeing from your other projects, I believe you can too. TF Hades sounds incredible.

Alytimona

Absolutely and I have similar concerns, but I hope / am relying on the idea that I will also find new supporters.

Aika

I guess you’re right. It’s just a bit risky to divide the community in half like that. A project like this wouldn’t be possible with half the support anymore.

Rel

Babe there are thousands and thousands of games listed on TGFS. Obviously most are incomplete hobby projects, but still, there's plenty of interesting games with cool stories and good writing. In my opinion, people like you and me should be making something unique and special. But that's just my single opinion. I'm aware that the majority likely disagrees 😝

Aika

I agree. I’m not concerned about it being good though. I know it would be good but that doesn’t matter if the community isn’t interested in the type of gameplay.

Rel

Wasn’t aware of that one, thanks. I’m not really concerned about it becoming fun. Call me cocky, but that’s my job. 😅 But yeah, making a game for everyone is probably more important in a community this small.

Rel

Seed of the Dead has demonstrated that adult action games *can* be successful. But perhaps it's an additional challenge. After all, you need to make sure that the action gameplay is actually really fun. Which is easier said than done. Personally, I would love to see more people trying to make a good adult action game. But I'm aware that it might not be for everyone.

Aika

The Hades approach of action loop to unlock more fetish content isn't bad but is a more challenging approach. The more intresting game is definitly Option A but Option B is the safer path. A can be super good or really bad depending how it goes while B will be consistent. Its your call but I think a rougelike game with fetish content like BMO wouldn't be a bad mix

Rose Smith

In my opinion, the truly great games on TFgames.site are the ones that have boldly set out to strike a balance between traditional gameplay mechanics and narrative content. I think that's a balance which can be found with any genre, but some are going to be easier than others. Typically the more difficult ones are also the most. You've already shown that you can make a good visual novel, but sexy Hades? That's something I want to be along for the ride on.

Mark Simpson

I mean I'd be up to try it, I just don't know without trying it if I'd like it. We can't really make an educated decision with nothing to go on.

bion247

Motsly IS better an action rpg ans if you want i Can help you coding the game

Orionas

Personally, whenever I play one of these kinky sex games, I'm only using one hand to interact with the game. So I think an action gameplay focus would be a pretty difficult barrier for me to overcome. That being said, I'm not really looking for a VN either; I'm perfectly happy with any kind of turn-based or strategic gameplay concepts.

qwerty359

That is kind of the idea, yes, although it isn’t related to CoC at all, of course.

Rel

A game styled kind of like corruption of champions with more action would be great

Ian Love

Okay, but that’d just mean bad difficulty scaling which is not plannable and relatively easily fixable. Balancing is not easy, but I wouldn’t say it’s something to look at before deciding what kind of game to make. ☺️

Rel

Fair I know I'll follow the bimbo path every chance. But I guess what I was getting at was more if people get to a point they struggle to progress it'll reduce play time. My concern wasn't power scaling and more play style adjustment. At the end of the day it's your game though and I look forward to supporting it and wish you the best luck.

Talset krios

Obviously you’d still have an avatar system on the side. No issues with a top down view at all. I understand your concern about power vs flavor, but to be honest I disagree with this being important. This is a PvE game, not PvP. Balancing is not nearly as important here. If you think the community will only play the strongest moves and are okay with not getting their preferred transformations, I’d say that is 100% not going to happen. People have played the masochist in BMO files no matter what downside it gave them in order to gain more transformations. The whole point of this post is that people do not play these games in order to optimise gameplay but only to experience story. So I think this is a non issue.

Rel

The issue with a top down is that the NSFW aspect is gone almost completely you lose a lot of the ability to show the changes unless you have a model on the side to show the effects. Honestly I think where CoC, TiTS, and BMOTV shine is the changes. You can see how things are being affected and can enjoy them as opposed to just getting overwhelmed on screen. The other issue with an action game is if you are doing it as a kink thing players need a chance to enjoy the outcome of the changes meaning that those changes are going have to happen in a city and maybe change how the character interacts with the combat side to reflect it. Which then becomes an optimal balancing issue. "Like sure I could let this demon corrupt me but the shotgun effect isn't as good as the homing for my play style" and thus people miss out on choices purely because it affects them getting to the next part. If you make a random thing then you also have people not wanting to give up an attack they enjoy. The flip side is if you don't have the attack change at all and the changes purely cosmetic some people will feel cheated, right? I think the best of both sadly is turn based as just the ability to pick the attack is a huge boon. If you did an inventory system for it so players could do it for their attack then you run the risk of too few or too many choices where it either grows stale or you take too long to get back to your prefered attack. Though if you were to do an action game here are my thoughts on how it might progress clearly this is just my thoughts and shouldn't take away from your creative imagine. After all it is your game, your effort, and your time. While the players may complain or what not it is your vision at the end of the day and you can't please everyone. I think what could be fun and something people might enjoy is a multi skill tree a sort of "how much do you give of yourself" thing. This gives more player freedom while also not limiting too much since progression becomes player choice in how attacks work sure you still have the optimal build issue but you also open up to the play style of the player more. I think that would open things up better for players since part of the appeal for Diablo 2 over Diablo 3 for instance was the ability to customize and not cookie cutter every playthrough. Add in some classes and transformation only skill trees (such as a bimbo skill tree that only appears after starting that transformation or a corruption one for demons) and you have replay value as well that grows with the different paths you offer. Could even make it an array stuff like kitsune, succubus, incubus, ect. using different cultures spirits and demons to offer more choices. The major downside of it of course is that it is SO MUCH work for you, though the pay off is longer kept player base. You would have to not only write to account for the player's changes but also code so that the model reflects them. Given how much passion you have for BMOTV if it was put into a project like this I could see it slowly filling out starting off on the base boards of the game as pure human, and slowly adding the different trees and corruptions as updates. The final thing is more of a personal thing though I loved it in your femdemic game, would love to make my lush go off if struck or maybe just a low buzz on certain paths but I am also sure that was a massive headache and could understand if you wanted to avoid such a thing again.

Talset krios

That’d be in no way affordable no 😅more like Diablo or Hades, but obviously these are also a little expensive

Rel

Action rpg games like final fantasy vii remake

Orionas

If you're making action rpg games, then I have one favorite Vampire game.: The Masquerade Bloodlines. of the classics, this is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1-2. But these are very difficult games. Although in the Vampire universe: The Masquerade Bloodlines have demons too. I would emphasize some of the mechanics from the Demon: The Fallen. If you do a lot of specialists on Unity, it is very difficult to find those who can also optimize it normally. It will be much easier with Unreal Engine 4...

Anton

Also I should say: I’m fine with the game being quite difficult, as long as I can meet its challenges at my own pace.

Notalie Portman

(I just submitted when I tried to make a second paragraph so I’ll continue here) However, having obstacles and mechanics in a game are important to me. It makes it feel more real. This is in addition to any play value of the mechanics themselves; I’m saying that whether or not the obstacles and mechanics are legitimately fun on their own, their presence improves the story experience, especially in a sandbox game. So, sandbox games where I build my own story but have to strategize and learn new game mechanics but don’t have to do loads of time-sensitive clicking or gestures or whatever are what I would regard as ideal.

Notalie Portman

Yeah, I agree but I’m not really a fan of it.

Rel

While I am a big fan of the idea of a transformation based action / turn based game ( To the point of writing up a small design doc for a non lewd game idea ) I mostly tend to play NSFW games for the sake of the story / writing. In that context it feels like having diablo style game play mixed with more story focused hubs would be hard to mix together well. In my personal opinion a turn based system like in Corruption of Champions, Trials in Tainted Space, and Dawn of Corruption is a lot easier to blend together with story telling. Mostly because the turn based nature allows players to see the artwork more clearly and gives more chances to add NSFW writing / details. Another potential option is gameplay similar to Latex Dungeon or Grove where you have more of a mix but still have it be turn based at the end of the day.

Nicholas E. Zonenberg

I haven’t really enjoyed action gameplay since I reached adulthood because it tends to stress me out rather than provide a pleasant bit of challenge. Sometimes I’ll take it on if the action element is relatively relaxed and the rest of the game is pretty or compelling in other ways. Ghost Trick is probably about as far as I’ve gone. Regardless, very rarely do I view it as a bonus.

Notalie Portman

I'm down with some action gameplay as long as, to be crass, the sexy content is mostly done in a form where I don't have to use both hands to access it.

Bonin

I've thought of that as well. It's just that it's way too expensive for not a lot of content. I doubt it'd work on Patreon.

Rel

I'm here for the content, not primarily the mechanics. I love BMOTV and could imagine something more along the lines of Life is Strange :)

Maru

If that’s how you view your games, which is totally reasonable, then I’d just make the game you want to make. It seems like regardless of whether it’s an ARPG or a traditional RPG, you wont reach those seeking instant gratification. As long as it is a fleshed out ARPG with an opt out of explicit content it’ll reach a greater audience than BMO TV imo.

Jackel Holmes

possibly, it's just a terrible coincidence that I'm personally not a fan of these types of games.

Rel

I feel like a turn based RPG would be a good middle ground between real time action gameplay and the story first style. I think games like Fear & Hunger 2 have shown that we don't need to be limited by the RPGs of the old when it comes to RPG Maker.

FrostyDynamic

I don't consider any of my games porn games, so yes, I want to make an RPG first, no matter if it's action based or not.

Rel

I mean, I am here, so clearly I like the gameplay loop of BMO TV. But I am for more gameplay, not less. Too this day, my favorite lewd game is still devious Skyrim. For me the perfect TF game is one where I, the player do not want to be transformed but to teach my goal, I have to make deals with the devil, maybe literally in this case. I want to play a game where I actively try to resist being transformed but it is extremely hard to "win" without transformations and so in most playthroughs it will happen. But for me there needs to be a theoretical "good" outcome I could reach for the bad ones to be fun. And while I am ranting, I might also add that I am one of maybe few users of TF games who doesn't like an actual sex change. That breaks my willing suspension off disbelief every time. I appreciate that I can start as a woman in BMO TV.

RobertW

Last comment sent before I was finished lol. It seems that you definitely want to make an erotic RPG and not just a porn game with RPG sections, like CoC and TiTs, it’s understandable that you don’t want to give the player a way to circumnavigate the RPG. Another option for the RPG could be make an option to replace NSFW elements with more SFW elements so you can also draw in people who just want to play an action RPG, similar to what you did with Femdemic.

Jackel Holmes

Absolutely. I am fully on board with a game needing these things, otherwise it might as well be like some mobile games where you just hit the skip button, but I also think that should be a normal / story mode experience, with the game ushering you with your choices. I'm just not wholly a fan of time constraints, mostly cause I'm stupid and will mess up.. a lot, and having to restart is annoying for me. There's nothing wrong with how BMO is presented, and I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy it, and the effort you put into it. :) I just wanted to share my thoughts, but if you want to see some very well done games with adult themes, I'd suggest looking at Critical Bliss's steam library, a lot of their pixel games are fantastic for being action-y while also delivering a good story and adult content.

RuneoftheMill

Right, Option B would still be more like BMO TV than just another cyoa game.

Rel

The transformations, RPG skill trees and such would correlate, so there's a lot of possibility to make transformations and RPG elements work together.

Rel

I think there are more than enough heavily text based or cyoa games out there. And with ai, they will grow even more or just be replaced by services like redquill that let you literally cyoa from nothing. The future has to be games with gameplay. And ideally games with gameplay that gets influenced by the kinky parts. Like kinky transformations and equipment choices really mattering.

RobertW

I guess it depends on how rich you want to make the RPG element. With games that deviate from

Jackel Holmes

The "for a crumb of content" is another problem. The reward always needs to fit the effort, but just the fact that the community would consider the gameplay not part of the content is a big issue. I don't agree that just because it gives you tasks or challenges makes the base gameplay of BMO TV less sandbox-y, but I'm thinking more of the mechanical baseline than the final experience for sure. A game needs challenge and strategy to be a good game, in my eyes, regardless of the mechanical nature of it.

Rel

Yeah, in this scope, it doesn't work because mechanics and story need to be very closely intertwined. it's okay to have a skip button for something like the minigames in BMO TV, but when it comes to whole systems of RPG fighting, it would defeat the whole purpose of having any.

Rel

I think a good middle ground would be to have an option to opt out of the action aspect and instead have text sections describing what happens, as that would appeal to both audiences. This would be more intensive than doing one or the other though so it might lead to scope creep or disconnected systems.

Jackel Holmes

For me, visuals and animations and gaming aspects help with the immersion and imagination, but by far the main feature for me is the narrative, plot, and characters. Of course with a TF game, I want to be able to identify with the protagonist. The sexiness is more important to me than the gaming parts. That's my 2c.

Selkie

I personally am not a huge fan of having to put in a ton of effort for a crumb of content. But I do enjoy a good action platformer style game, and while I really enjoy BMO TV, I don't consider it a sandbox style experience. There are many options, yes, but you are always looking down the barrel of the gun so to speak where if you aren't exactly following a guide for what you want, then you lose and have to start all over. I think the idea of an action game can be very fun, I've played several adult games strictly for the gameplay, i.e. Midnight Castle Succubus on steam. So I'm honestly torn on which way to vote. Apologies for the long comment.

RuneoftheMill


More Creators